Topic: Pomak language ?

[bogutevolu]

Dear brother Boyan and ofcourse other respectful friends.

My arguments was written for reminding the presence of Pomak people in Turkey and how they thinking of. They need to take into consideration. Please do not think unilateral.
We would like to turn your attention that we are sensible to maintain our Pomak identity.

I agree the majority of your espressions. But our statement convey our concerns. 
Not denying of our Pomak identity as a historical reality is enough for us.
Pomak intentions of separatism has not been anywhere. 

We define our language as “Pomaski ezik” in Turkey not Bulgarian. Also we define ourselves as Pomaks.  This is the simple reality from the point of an ordinary Pomak mentality  in Turkey.

If you are sensitive in your side, we are also sensitive in our side. Pomaks are not officially accepted in Turkey. In the same way in Bulgaria. All rhetorics about no existency of such a people called Pomak. In Turkey you are pedigree Turk and in Bulgaria you are pure Bulgarian.

We are an intersection of  two opposite directions.  I suppose that the two country have agreed that Pomaks in Turkey  must become Turk, but Pomaks in Bulgaria is Bulgarian. We do not have any other way? Preserving our Pomak identity?

We just want to live in the democratic countries and to preserve our own culture. That’s it.
Are we saying something different?  Such as separatism, federalism or autonomy. No such thing.

[Тоска]

Our discussion language is english. Usage of other languages are not allowed here!
 
Konumuz pomak dilinin varlığıdır. İngilizce haricindeki diller ile yorumda bulunmanıza izin verilmemektedir!

Темата е свързан с помашки език и Забранено е използването на други езици освен английски!

[Ерол]

I haven't read the whole topic, if I say something repeated I beg you excuse me  
I wouldn't say that the Pomakian language exists, we all now that it's a Bulgarian dialect. In fact, it is called Rupian dialect (Рупски диалект) and if you search in wikipedia you'll find a lot of information about this dialect and the regions were it's spoken.
If I say that I wouldn't like the Rupian dialect to be an official language, maybe plenty of you would jump against me. But I am persistent to my opinion.
Maybe in a three centuries period of time the Pomakian way of speaking will be so changed that could be considered as an alternate language, and it is then when it should be considered an official language. Up to now it's been considered a dialect and I have nothing against that. I don't see the point of making a new language official as it would die in a very short period of time, and it will end the same as it is now.
Let's take for example India, this country has MILLIONS of dialects (literally) and there are hundreds of this dialects which die EVERY DAY. If they made official every single dialect in that country, what would be the aim of that?  Or even if they didn't make official every dialect they have, even if they made official only the most spoken dialects, that country would have thousands of official languages, and who's going to study all that philologies? In the end, there is no point of that, just a waste of time, in my opinion.
Many of you would disagree with me, but I don't care, I really think that there is no need to make official a language which is considered a minor dialect.
I'm not saying that I wouldn't be happy if that happened, what I'm saying is that I don't see the point of doing this.

[Тоска]

Aspects of Multilingualism in European Border Regions
 

 
Eastern Macedonia and Thrace, Lublin Voivodeship and South Tyrol
 

 
ISBN 978  - 88  - 88906  - 34  - 8

[Ерол]

I'm sick and tired to listening of nonsenses. Another book in which the author meant what he wanted without being informed of anything.
Anyway, we are already accustomed!

[Dobrev]

We define our language as “Pomaski ezik” in Turkey not Bulgarian. Also we define ourselves as Pomaks.  This is the simple reality from the point of an ordinary Pomak mentality  in Turkey.

Dear ago Mustafa,

I really really admire that you have preserved for over a century the way your parents and grandparents spoke.
And I know why you call that language pomak - because it`s only pomaks that live in Turkey and that speak it.
It`s the same situation in Greece, they have no idea how Bulgarians speak and that`s why they call it pomak language there too.

But when it comes to Bulgaria, where this language originated, the situation is different.
We cannot say that it is pomak language, because in Bulgaria Christians and Muslim speak the same dialect.
So every time a Christian hears that his language was called pomak, that only increases the hostility towards us.
We don`t need more hostility between the two confessional groups in Bulgaria.

From linguistic point of view, that is just a dialect of Bulgarian.
In Bulgaria there`s many many dialects. We cannot start saying that they are different languages, because they all follow grammatical and syntax rules of the Bulgarian language.


And if we have to be objective, we cannot define it as pomak in Bulgaria, as more Christians than us speak the same dialect. That is why we call it Rhodope or Rupchoski (Rupski) dialect.

Take a look and you will see that Christians speak the same way as we do:

http://www.napenalki.com/

[Националист]

 „О, ти неразумни юроде, поради что се срамиш, болгарин да се наричаш“ Паисий Хилендарски


Hello dear brothers from Turkey. For me you are Bulgarians, so when I write it, I mean you. The separatism is in our blood, it's part of the character of Bulgarians. You see, if Turks had 500 years Byzantine slavery (just let suggest), and have done some Turks Christian, today Turks would be proud, because they have many religions. This is because Turks like their selves, and they are proud of their history and past, although they have bad periods too. We, Bulgarians are not like them. We set on first place "me" and "my wife/husband", others can starve, can stay out of water, but they are not important. Well, may be you are not this kind of person, may be I'm not too, but this is because we are bred people. Nowadays Bulgarians are separated on 3 groups - casual Bulgarians; Macedonians - citizens of FYRO Macedonia; and you - muslim Bulgarians.
 
Now let start talking about the topic. "Помашки език", please use Cyrillic, can exist only like a dialect of the Bulgarian language. Why? Because it is Bulgarian language in its roots. Every region has it's own dialect and it's no problem to exist. The problem is when you people, come here start explaining us some "true" . How dare you to say that you speak Bulgarian language when you haven't been in Bulgaria for more than 100 years? You add Turk words in this language, you change some words and letters. You can't read in Bulgarian, you even don't know the alphabet. In the other hand are the Pomaks in Bulgaria. They listen Bulgarian TV, read newspapers, they speak at home a language that is dialectical, but 100% Bulgarian. I'm sure you don't know, but there are Bulgarians in Banat, Hungary, they don't speak our language, they write on Latin alphabet, they call their language "Banat Bulgarian", but they know that even changed somehow, this language is Bulgarian and they have to keep it. Today they don't write their newspapers on "Banat Bulgarian", because in XXI they learn to write and read on native Bulgarian. You should do it too. It's normal that you have changed your language through the years abroad, but it's all your problem that you don't speak your native language. Don't tell others to learn your language, learn the language of others !

I hope you will understand me correctly, I don't have nothing against you, I just want to help you find the right way.


PS: Bogutevolu, if you want to see some books of Bulgarian, I can give you some links for books written for people whose native language is Turkish, here in Sofia, there are many people from Turkey coming to study here so I can give you pictures of their books so you will see how Bulgarian is this language you call "Pomashki"

ПС: Исках първото изречение да е в курсив но явно HTML тагове нещо не работят.

[bricktop]

Most of the bulgarian racists define macedonian as bulgarian (soon they 'll begin to qualify serbian as a subdialect of bulgarian   ) but as we know there are so many differencies between them. With simple logic we can easily define rhodopean tongues as like as a language. If macedonian is an accepted language by linguistic scientists, pomak language would be accept as a language. M i right ?

"The Macedonian`language is a dialect of the Bulgarian but there is too much politics involved in that issue. For example the lang. spoken in Quebec is French dialect and noone ever doubted it. The Macedonian dialect is spoken not only in FYROM and the geogrphical region of Macedonia, but also in the areas of Kjustendil, Trun, and Samokov for that matter. And tose have never been considered part of Macedonia region, on the contrary in fact.
As for the Pomak language, I feel it is a blend of Slav and Turkish. The word `bubaiko`(dad, father) for example, comes from the Turkish ``buba``(dad, father), if I am not mistaken. If Pomak have decided to call it Pomashki, it is their choise. I do not see any problem with that.
Anyway, as Sir W. Churchill said: The Balkans have soo much history, they cannot handle it:)

[Nazmi]

Dear ago Mustafa,

I really really admire that you have preserved for over a century the way your parents and grandparents spoke.
And I know why you call that language pomak - because it`s only pomaks that live in Turkey and that speak it.
It`s the same situation in Greece, they have no idea how Bulgarians speak and that`s why they call it pomak language there too.

But when it comes to Bulgaria, where this language originated, the situation is different.
We cannot say that it is pomak language, because in Bulgaria Christians and Muslim speak the same dialect.
So every time a Christian hears that his language was called pomak, that only increases the hostility towards us.
We don`t need more hostility between the two confessional groups in Bulgaria.

From linguistic point of view, that is just a dialect of Bulgarian.
In Bulgaria there`s many many dialects. We cannot start saying that they are different languages, because they all follow grammatical and syntax rules of the Bulgarian language.


And if we have to be objective, we cannot define it as pomak in Bulgaria, as more Christians than us speak the same dialect. That is why we call it Rhodope or Rupchoski (Rupski) dialect.

Take a look and you will see that Christians speak the same way as we do:

http://www.napenalki.com/

  Here in our site www. pomak.eu- discussions and traditions are fine.
 The our members forum us nave respect with that.
 Thanks for normal discussions,and needet more fakt and opinion.

[aroxol1979]

Hey, 

1.Greeks came in Thrace arround 700 B.C. (they destroyed our Beautyfull Troia) but they gave also.

2. Bulgars came in Thrace arround 600 A.C. they destroyed many villages, but they gave also.

3. Turks came in Thrace arround 1200 A.C. they destroyed but they gave also.

4. Pomacks or Ahrianes (they were called so "agrianes-achrianes" in the ancient world) or Ahrensky were living in Thrace beforeany other race (greeks,  bulgars, turks), they were one of the Thracian Tribes.

They had their own language and it was Thracians language and their own Gots before they become Christians or Muslims and maybe greeks-bulgars -turks.

I dont think that its right to try, to show that ahrianes-pomaks-thracians are closer to greece to bulgaria or turkey, i think we should love our people, our history, our way of living, our land Thrace and try to find many of our common thinks and not thinks they make us something else like greeks bulgars or turks.

Many of what we have is coming from these three (greeks turks bulgars) and many they got is coming from us.

But one is for sure, all we want to stay and find our place in History as Ahraines-Pomaks and Trueborn Thracians.

Thank u all.

[bogutevolu]

 
1) A little anecdote:

Recently one of my relatives named Nedim has told me that: when the (Turkish) immigrants came from the Bulgaria on 1989 year, He had wanted to help them. So he had spoken them in his Pomak tongue. They  had surprised and pulled themselves back. My relative had asked “Why do you hasitate?” Then they had said that “this is the Russian language what you speak.”
 
What this means to you? Is it really identical our tongue with official Bulgarian.?
 
 
2) Some excerpts from promacedonia.org:

http://www.promacedonia.org/jchorb/st/st_2_b_izt_3.htm#smoljanski
 
“1.  С м о л я н с к и  г о в о р”

“5. Характерна и занимлива фонетична особеност на смолянския говор е и т. нар.  а к а н е  — изговор на неударено o като а: вадѝца, гòрạ—гạрѝца, кạбѝлạ, дạшòл, гạлềм, ạфчềри, ạтѝде, мạмà. Тая особеност се среща в речта на помашкото население в южната част на говора и много напомня южноруското акане. В смолянския говор обаче това акане се явява само пред ударена сричка. След ударена сричка o се редуцира в у (мàслу, жèлну), т. е. изговаря се, както в повечето български говори. Интересно е, че наред с акавия изговор на неударено o ce среща в няколко случая акав изговор и вместо у: ạхàпạ (ухапа), стạдèнạ, кạрбàн (курбан).

6. У помаците, и то най-вече в южната част на смолянския говор, пред плавните съгласни р, л, когато са след съгласна, се изговаря слабо тъмно а, та се получават форми, напомнящи руското пълногласие: вạрêтèно (вретено), сạрềдạ (сряда), сạрèбру, бạрàдвạ (брадва), сạтạрѝжену (стрижено), тạрồн (трън); пạлềвạ (плява), мạл’ềку (мляко), хạлềп, кạлềште (клещи).”

2.  Ш и р о к о л ъ ш к и  г о в о р

1. Редукция на неударените предни гласни е и и в ерова гласна: лѝцъ (лице), нъ пòвнạ, тòй отѝдъ дạ бèръ грòздъ; ỳлъцъ (улица), грàнъцъ (граници), дрèбнъ кàмънъ (дребни камъни), крàвъ, въсòк, жèнъ (жени). След задните палатални съгласни к’, г’, х’ обаче няма редукция: рồк’и, нòг’и, снồх’и. Тая особена, необикновена за българския език редукция напомня донякъде южноруската.”

We think that these features remains from Slavic Smolyani clan. We can meet on the base of Slavness but we definitely don’t come from Proto-Bulgarian origin. So there will be some differencies. But this fact what we say does not show us that we are separatist.

[bogutevolu]

We live in Turkey under influences of  its culture. Our tongue is unlike to Turkish. However nearly almost Turkish academicians in single discourse say that you are from Kuman and Pecenegs. Pomaks living in Greece always listen that you are descendants of the great Alexander. Of course in Bulgaria have been stressed that you are pure Bulgarian.

We are not under the influence of Bulgaria nor Greece. I had thought that Pomaks are Turkish origin until 45 of my age. But through on my own research from world’s resorces, I saw that the whole states there Pomaks live in have been seeing this issue in distortion from their point of view. 

This was a very traumatic experience for me. This is why describe myself as a Pomak. Because we are an important community in Turkey in population 300 000 to 600 000 mentioned in academic circles.

This result is not given by hand to me but I have been reached my own conclusion. Reflects our reality. Non political but personal. We are not politicians and we do not want they decide on us.

But we are open to develope our ideas. Certainly new information will change our thoughts. We are always open to discusse. We do not have rigid ideas.

I would like to thank to my brother Boyan who understand me. 

[bogutevolu]

Dear “Националист”

* “How dare you to say that you speak Bulgarian language when you haven't been in Bulgaria for more than 100 years? You add Turk words in this language, you change some words and letters.”

My ancestors come  from Rhodopes a century ago but we did not forget our language and never change it. Since then we have protected our tongue. Our people may be now bilingual. But Turkish words in our tongue is the heritage of Ottoman period. The turkish words what we use have different pronounciation.


* You can't read in Bulgarian, you even don't know the alphabet.

I can read in Bulgarian in cyrillic but I need many more exercises completely understanding of  media languge. 

Fort the subject of Bulgarian alphabet: you have  4 distinct alphabet in my opinion.
Big block letters, small block letters and, big handwriting letters and small handwriting letters are more confused to me in fact.

* PS: Bogutevolu, if you want to see some books of Bulgarian, I can give you some links for books written for people whose native language is Turkish, here in Sofia, there are many people from Turkey coming to study here so I can give you pictures of their books so you will see how Bulgarian is this language you call "Pomashki"

I will be very pleased for your help to me. I am studying for 1-2 years. I reached to a certain level but I should have come a long way. I have read many articles in internet about Bulgarian language in English.

I have a Bulgarian grammar book in Turkish.  A friend of mine lent me a big dictionary that very useful for me. A publication of Academy of Bulgarskata Naukata.  I was out there thousands of  sentences.  I have several practical talking boks.

Also my mother teached me Pomak language that her tongue. This is mostly based of Central Rhodopian Lakavitsa village (of Luky) dialect that is spoken in our village.  I have prepared a small dictionary of 1500 words by mother’s mouth.  We have developed ths dictionary. Now it reached nearly 6000 word.

These are the studies that I have done for learning my language.
And I welcome for new sources which you offer.

[sioz]

My opinion is if there are many slav languages lıke a slovakian, serbian bulgarian russian etc. why not to be a pomak language. I believe that pomak language is the separate language lake other slavanian languages (not Bulgarian regional dialect languages like a shop or other dialects).. As I know the gramer of this language is compleatly different from Bulgarian language. Can anybody explain to me "kutro kopele si ti" how you can translate it into Bulgarian and how is seems to be a part of Bulgarian language. Yes Pomaks was muslums in the past but now there are muslums cristians and other non religion people in BG TR and GR. This is my opinion.

[Националист]

Very well, Bogutevolu!   You seem to be a person who wants to discuss. First, please make the difference between Bulgars and Bulgarians. Bulgars belong to the Mongoloid race, tribe which had a country on the east coast of the Black sea. On the end of their kingdom, they separated, and one of part of them about 10 000 - 20 000 with Khan Asparuh came to the Balkans about 630 year. Look at the numbers again, and imagine the lots of Slavs living there. In the beginning Bulgars were the only rulers of the new country, but from 700 to 830 year Slavs started to integrate in this country and in the end of the VII century the Slavic language was adopted like an official, because most of the people were Slavs. In the 852 when Car Boris I is the ruler of Bulgaria, there ware no more Bulgars and Slavs, they have flow together in one - Bulgarians, with Slav language, Slav character, only without common religion. Some people were praying in Bulgar Gods, some on Slavic ones. The main reason to become a christian country was to unite all people in one religion. The Bulgar religion survived only because of the "father's principe" - kids take the religion of the father. So in 862,  Boris I united all of people in the christian religion, without exeptions. After the the fall of his son - Boyan Rasate, who wanted to move back on the different religions, there were other religions in Bulgaria except Christianity. You see, there are many scripts about this time, Thracians are not mentioned anywhere, because they didn't exist in this time. Just see the time map and you will see that it is impossible to talk about Thracians and muslim people in the Balkans in this period, just think about these - the Conversion, Tsar Simeon I of Bulgaria, Byzantine Empire, the Crusaders.... There were no Muslim people in the Balkans before the Ottoman empire. You are just Bulgarians who became Muslim in the period of Ottoman occupation, who escaped from Bulgaria, because of the inhuman politicians in the period of communist slavery. This is the true for me, I don't understand you why you are shamed, because you have been Christians and you want to find "a calf under the ox", like we Bulgarians say. You are not criminals, because of your ancestors who have been  forced to became Muslim, it just a fact. You should know, that despite all this facts you are nonetheless Bulgarians from us and you have the same rights like us. We have to support you and let you learn about your roots, and don't threat you like "different" because you have different faith. It's all in your hands, if you want to know us, your and our language, if you want, we are obliged to help you.   

PS: About the books, these days I'm really busy, but the next week I will try to find something.