Author Topic: Pomak language ?  (Read 105694 times)

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Offline dunyata

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Re: Ynt: Pomak language ?
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2010, 19:57 »
мойно (neutral) родно село,
мойне (plural) мили сестри
мойна (female) дружина
 
Most important question. Do they whiped as an official grammer rule ? if not they're all nonsense 

I see an attempt to explore three genders. Hum, these three genders are pretty normal for the Bulgarian language. But let me correct you: мойна дружина isn't male - it's female (or maybe in the Pomak language it's male, hm-hm... I wonder). And the expression мойне мили сестри isn't just female - it's plural.
Also I see an article which I absolutely usual Bulgarian way of speaking/writing in the last few centuries.

But what you're talking about?

That discussion just repeats older topics in the Bulgarian-language section of the forum. Just repeat it again and again...

There are many people who gave arguments to prove that Pomaks speak different regional Bulgarian dialects. As I'm descendant of Christians from Rhodope mountains I don't share the idea that the language of my ancestors was not Bulgarian.

Dear friends from Turkey, you call us "racists" because we don't give up our language - the most ancient Slavic language in the world. I respect your right to build your identity, even to create some imaginary history but I don't accept to do it at the   expense of the Bulgarians. I don't think it's a gentleman's behavior.

I respect your right of opinion and free speech in your forum, but as you invited me in that topic, I feel free to tell you: stop these stupidities!

Offline Тоска

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2010, 20:41 »
As usual the time comes to say something about my mistake. Firstly thnx to ur correction but unfortunately you confirm differencies between languages so i have written for bulgarian nor for pomak language. My manner of approaching is same as macedonians. But what a pity that your discourse of macedonian language is a dialect of bulgarian, remained unfulfilled  ;)   
 
Among the other things why do you assume about getting your language ? As a matter of fact we don't want your language  ;D     
 
And i ask again about my last sentence (corrected with yourself) Do they whiped as an official grammer rule ? if not they're all nonsense !       
Si vis pacem, para bellum !

Offline Abdula

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2010, 21:00 »
Ассалям алейкум уа рахматулЛахи уа баракатуху.

Обръщам се към администраторите!

Моля затворете тази  дискузия!

Обръщам се към останалите!

За какво говорите тука, не ви ли е срам? Нямате друга тема на разговор  ли? Това, за което говорите  тука  е празен разговор. - Това е грях. Искате да се разделите ? Разделяй и владей - това е лозунг на кафирите, на безбожниците. Всеки си има глава за да разбере правилния път. Всеки човек работи за себе си доколкото разбира,  а неразбирането му   работи за този който разбира повече. Преди да се говори празен разговор, трябва много добре да се помисли кой и с каква цел го е започнал. Мъчно ми се вижда всичко това, че един народ се разделя на два и колкото повече време минава толкова в пропорция ръсте преградата между него, говоря за българите , макар че знам, че не бива да се мъча, защото това е волята на Аллах. Не бива да се продалжава този разговор.
Уалейкум ассалям.

Offline dunyata

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2010, 21:16 »
As usual the time comes to say something about my mistake. Firstly thnx to ur correction but unfortunately you confirm differencies between languages so i have written for bulgarian nor for pomak language. My manner of approaching is same as macedonians. But what a pity that your discourse of macedonian language is a dialect of bulgarian, remained unfulfilled     


How the people in the Rhodope say one дружина?

Why don't you try to expose your concept of the "Pomak language"? Make us familiar with your ideas about the structure, the grammar and the unique linguistic rules, which distinguish the Pomak speech from the official Bulgarian standard.


(Don't mix the topic's subject with the Macedonian question. Try to find arguments for your own thesis... if you can)
 

Among the other things why do you assume about getting your language ? As a matter of fact we don't want your language       


Then why do you pretend that Rup dialect isn't Bulgarian? The Bulgarian-speaking Christians speak that Rup dialect from many centuries - long before the term Pomak appears under the sun. In a matter of fact, in order to create a separate language, you try to steal the dialect of local Bulgarians in Rhodope mountains. Sorry for you, but the Bulgarian written language is codified more than eleven centuries ago, it went through many transformations and even today its dialects are 90% relevant to the official standard. 
 
And i ask again about my last sentence (corrected with yourself) Do they whiped as an official grammer rule ? if not they're all nonsense !     

What exactly do you mean?   

---------------------------
Toska, in the last years your forum repeats the same thing and I'm surprised that you are not able to do something more.
If you pretend to prove the existing of a separate Pomak language, I expect you to be more academic. Try to expose here a clear and logical concept. Throwing the question "Pomak language?" and just repeating "it exists, it exists, it exists..." without any scientific explanation is a little bit childish!

If you want to be accepted seriously, try to be serious in your thesis.
 

Offline tsigahrah

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2010, 23:09 »
Friends, calm down.

Officially (at least from the point of view of Bulgarian science) pomaks speak various (note - not a single one) dialect of Bulgarian language. But taking into consideration the situation with the "Macedonian language" we have to admit that in some other political situation Pomak dialects could form a separate language.

Can anyone here define the exact difference between a dialect and a language???
Bulgarian is one language, Turkish is another language. People cannot understand each other without learning/training/practicing.
But I can understand Macedonians,  I can even speak the way they do, they can understand my Bulgarian and can speak the way I do. So what makes Macedonian a separate language? Politics and only politics. And why the Bulgarian dialects in Pirin Macedonia are considered dialects of Bulgarian and not Macedonian? The answer is simple - politics.

You want to have a straight answer - black or white, yes or no. But you never will receive a definite answer, simply because "language" and "dialect" is almost the same thing.

If you ask me, we (the bulgarian-shopi-macedonian-torlak-pomak-thracian-dobrudzhan speaking people) are too few to be separated.
United we go stronger: Culture, Economy, Science.
Look at Germany - big country of 16 different states, but they are united and they are strong.
Look at France - big country, different cultures, but they are united and they are strong.
Look at Turkey - big country, so many different ethnic groups, but they are united and they are strong.
Now look at us - the Balkan countries. We want to separate, separate, separate and we go weaker and weaker.

Pomak language? No thanks. But if you - the pomaks in Rhodopa - do feel that you need it as a separate language and that it will make you life better, or the life of your children and grandchildren - go ahead it is your right to do so.
   
Стига сме се дѣлили. Всички сме хора.

Offline Dobrev

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2010, 23:12 »
Some arguments:

Pomak language is between Bulgarian and Macedonian languages.
There are close relations but have many differencies with them.
Pomak language is more slavic than Bulgarian.
Pomak language has more preserved the Slavic purity than Bulgarian.
Pomak language belongs to the South-East Slavic group.
It is not easy to say that Pomak language is the same as Bulgarian.
Pomak language is more preserved in immigrants in Turkey.
Immigrants in Turkey do not define her own language as Bulgarian but Pomak language.
Rhodope region history has not always gone together with Bulgarian history.
Rhodope region is a combination point of the Bulgarian, Greek and Turkish cultures.
Therefore has it own richness and diversity.
Bulgarian language have created in 19. century as a syntetic language.
Under the German domination Czech language had death but was raised again.
Under the Arab domination Persi language had death along the 3 centuries, but poet Firdevsi has aroused the Persi language by Shahname.
And Ibrani language had dissapeared along the 2000 years but Israelis has resurrected this death language.
Pomak language is not too hard to standardize as a modern tongue.

We as Pomaks are aware of our diversity have not been any intention of separatism in the countries where we live.



Ago Mustafa,

There`s a lot of things that are questionable here.

First lets start with what language do you define as "pomak" - the language from the Rupchos region, the language from Chech region, the language from Pirin region, the language from Lovech in Northern Bulgaria, Pleven or Teteven?
These are all distinctive regions where pomaks are found and we are all with different dialects.
The pomaks from Northern Bulgaria don`t speak like the ones in Rupchos.
The Pirin pomaks speak different than the Eastern Rhodope people.

If you consider the dialect Rupchos to be pomak language, then what language do the pomaks from the other regions speak?

Please keep in mind that a lot more Christians speak Rupchos dialect than Muslims, as the Rup dialects stretch from Western Rhodopes to Strandja and Sakar to the East.
So we canno claim that this is pomak language as the Christians living here speak the same dialect.

I understand that the situation in Turkey is different. There the only people speaking what you call "pomak" are namely the pomaks that were resettled after the fall of the Ottoman empire. You have no contacts with Christian Bulgarians from the Rupchos region. If you had contact, you would have seen that these Christians speak absolutely the same language that you speak. Of course due to the mass education and the influence of the media, the people living in the Rhodopi region tend to speak the official Bulgarian language. But the old people, both Christian and Muslim, speak still the dialects.


So Rupchos dialects are not privy to pomaks.
In Bulgaria we all speak the same dialects - no matter if we are Christian or Muslim.

The difference comes from the geographical region, not from the religious affiliation.


You say that "pomak" is more Slavic than Bulgarian.

Bulgarian is a Slavic language
.
If you refer to the language of the Proto-Bulgarians - we still have no definitive proof what their language was.

Modern scholars define as Bulgarian the language in which all the Church Slavonic books were written in the 9-10-11 century. This is a Slavic language. Moreover they define the dialects of Solun as the basis of the Church Slavonic.

I am aware that the pomak people in Turkey do not identify themselves with Bulgarians.
That is why you do not define the language you speak as Bulgarian.

But again the problem here stems from the religious affiliation.
As we all know, the religion was the defining factor until the beginning of the 20th century.
Bulgarian was equal to Orthodox Christian and Muslim was equal to Turk.
It was religion that was the predominant factor in people`s lives as most of them were illiterate.
But since the introduction of the education in the 20th c, a lot of people started to realize that Muslim is not the same as Turk and Bulgarian is not the same as Christian.


So Rupchos dialects cannot be claimed as pomak language.
Remember that the Christians from this region even had the Bible translated in Rhodope dilect at the beginning of the 19th century in order to replace the Greek language in their churches :)



 

Offline valya_bl

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2010, 23:32 »
А аз като не мога да се включа на английски??  Нима помаците в България не са българи??? Та какви други могат да бъдат, освен българи??? И на какъв друг език трябва да се говори, ако не на български???Нима българският език не им е майчин език??? На английски ли искате да си общувате??? О, заблудени!!!Нали всеки трябва да говори на майчиния си език, па тогава на английски ако ще...Не разбрах много от тази дискусия, няма да седна да превеждам, но ако някой се срамува от майчиния си език, наистина е грях. Поне хората,които аз познавам, моите приятели, не са такива.ПОправете ме ако греша. Sorry, но няма да пиша на нито на латиница , нито на английски. (ахглийския ми не е толкова силен:))

Offline valya_bl

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2010, 23:41 »
И да допълня- защо се включих: тои израз-"Pomak language" , ме озадачи. Според мен помаците навсякъде  говорят майчиния си език , а не "помашки". Ако са в България, логично е този език да е българския, респективно - в Гърция-гръцки и т. н.... За какво изобщо е тази дискусия??? 

Offline Шали

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2010, 00:15 »
А аз като не мога да се включа на английски?? ...Sorry, но няма да пиша на нито на латиница , нито на английски. (ахглийския ми не е толкова силен:))

На главната страница на сайт-а се извеждат последните активни теми от форума. Ако сте го разгледала в цялост, ще сте видяла, че има раздели на различни езици. Тази дискусия конкретно е от раздела на английски. Който може и иска, пише на чужди езици. Търси се по-широк обхват на потребителски профил на участниците. За теми на български език - цък :)
Благодаря Ти, Господи!

Offline Dobrev

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2010, 04:52 »
А аз като не мога да се включа на английски??  Нима помаците в България не са българи??? Та какви други могат да бъдат, освен българи??? И на какъв друг език трябва да се говори, ако не на български???Нима българският език не им е майчин език??? На английски ли искате да си общувате??? О, заблудени!!!Нали всеки трябва да говори на майчиния си език, па тогава на английски ако ще...



Валя,

Дискусиите на английски ги водим с помаците от Турция.
Тези, които са родени в Турция вече второ и трето поколение не говорят добре български, също така повечето от тях не четат кирилица. Това са хора, чиито дядовци и прадядовци са се изселили в Турция в края на 19 в - нач на 20 в и много от които никога не са се връщали в България.
И тъй като ние в България пък не знаем турски, единствения начин да се разберем и да комуникираме е през английския.


Offline tangrabg

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2010, 08:00 »
    When I was  a military, we had one Pomak. Another soldier had called him "Turk". Pomak,  as if accidentally killed him during military exercises. So much for the Turks  ...

Offline valya_bl

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2010, 08:01 »
Здравейте, разбрах ви. Аз подозирах, че има такава идея, дано да е полезно това , което правите.Успех!

Offline Тоска

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2010, 08:44 »
What exactly do you mean?

I exactly mean our example which is corrected by yourself


Мойно
Мойне
мойна

Are these mentioned as a grammer rule in bulgarian schools ? Absolutely not!
 
I expect you to be more academic. Try to expose here a clear and logical concept. Throwing the question "Pomak language?" and just repeating "it exists, it exists, it exists..." without any scientific explanation is a little bit childish!

Tons of examples exist. If you dont wanna to evaluate them than what can i do ? For example one of them appears on top   
 
The Bulgarian-speaking Christians speak that Rup dialect from many centuries - long before the term Pomak appears

Yep correct, The Slavic-speaking Christians speak that Rup dialect from many centuries - long before the term Pomak appears and
Rup carries archaic forms that points to (mostly) slavic and thracian descandants of pomaks. Official bulgarian language was created in the late 19th century so rup has been exist before. About most christians who speak same language like pomaks would be forcefully baptised pomaks or christian minority whose language requires adaptation with absolute majority that is pomaks   

Bulgarian written language is codified more than eleven centuries ago, it went through many transformations and even today its dialects are 90% relevant to the official standard.
 
So indeed many times it requires interpreter!
 
your forum


Not my own forum only my people's forum

Валя,
Дискусиите на английски ги водим с помаците от Турция.
Тези, които са родени в Турция вече второ и трето поколение не говорят добре български, също така повечето от тях не четат кирилица. Това са хора, чиито дядовци и прадядовци са се изселили в Турция в края на 19 в - нач на 20 в и много от които никога не са се връщали в България.
И тъй като ние в България пък не знаем турски, единствения начин да се разберем и да комуникираме е през английския.

Бояне,
благодаря за информацията, която ни даваш. Много е полезна. Hие като помаците които живеят в турция така мислим. Аз исках английски че без особено усилие този език може да бъде разбран от всеки. 
Si vis pacem, para bellum !

Offline rado

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2010, 09:15 »
Направо избихте рибата с израза славянски език. Май сте пропуснали няколко столетия презкоито прото- славянския се е разделил на отделни днешни езици принадлежащи към славянското езиково семейство. Към които безспорно принадлежи и българският език с всичките си диалекти. Няма славянски език без диалекти и във всеки един език един или повече от тези диалекти е положил основата на сегашните литературни езици в славянските държави. Това не прави диалектите маловажни и не ги отделя от общите граматични и морфологични принципи на всеки отеделен език. Така, че правенето на език от Рупчоските говори е несериозно и смешно. Самия Рупски говор се говри във широк ареал както от християни така и от мюсюлмани от Старнджа до Чеча и от Гюмюрджинско до Тракия, а и в северна България сред българите католици. Ако говорим за единен помашки език, то тогава директно се изключват ловешките помаци, чийто диалект е към северните български говори и по специално към преходната балканска група- т.нар. Галатски говор. Така че нека се опознаваме като приятели, а не да се опитваме да издигаме несъществуващи граници от които нито християни нито мюсюлмани имат или ще имат някаква полза. А що се отнася до израза славяно- говорящи това значи от Воронеж до Адриатика и Бяло море, От Юлиянските Алпи и река Одра  до Урал, че и нататък всички тези хора, чиито езици са със славянски произход  могат да използват този израз за техните днешни национални езици. Поздрав.

Offline Сидхарта

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Re: Pomak language ?
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2010, 09:21 »
Една не малка част говори на македонският диалект-Бабечанският е такъв ако не се лъжа.